Leading with Empathy Isn’t Soft. It’s Strategic

Guest: Deborah Livingston, CEO & Founder of ReEmployAbility

What if the way we’ve been taught to lead is actually limiting performance?

In this episode, I sit down with Deborah Livingston, CEO and founder of ReEmployAbility, to talk about what it really looks like to lead people well, especially the ones who are holding your business together every day.

We get into the reality that empathy is not a “nice to have.” It’s a business strategy.

Because when people feel safe, supported, and seen, they don’t just stay. They perform.

And when they don’t, the cost shows up everywhere, in turnover, in claims, in culture, and in results.

This conversation challenges the idea that leadership is about control and replaces it with something far more effective, responsibility.

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What We Cover

Why empathy in leadership is often misunderstood, and how it directly impacts performance

The business case for doing the right thing, not just ethically, but financially

How organizations overlook the people who are essential to their success

The connection between employee benefits, safety, and long-term business outcomes

What psychological safety actually looks like in a workplace, beyond buzzwords

How supporting injured or vulnerable workers the right way changes everything, for them and for your business

The ripple effect of leadership decisions on culture, retention, and risk

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Key Takeaways

Leading with empathy is not weakness. It’s clarity about what drives results

Your workforce is not a line item. It’s your operating system

Benefits and safety are not compliance exercises, they are signals of how much you value your people

Psychological safety isn’t abstract, it shows up in how people speak, act, and stay

When you take care of your people, they take care of your business

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Why This Matters

If you’re responsible for people, performance, or risk, this conversation is for you.

Because the way you lead shows up in your numbers, your culture, and your reputation, whether you’re paying attention to it or not.

And the leaders who understand this are the ones building organizations that last.

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Connect & Learn More

Learn more about Deborah’s work at ReEmployAbility and how they’re helping businesses support employees through injury, recovery, and return-to-work in a way that protects both people and performance.

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Listen & Follow

If this episode resonated, follow The Policy Playbook and share it with a leader who is responsible for people, but may not realize the impact of how they’re leading yet.

Because better leadership doesn’t just change businesses.

It changes lives. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What if I told you that one of Tampa Bay's top entrepreneurs built her business on a radical idea that injured workers deserve dignity, purpose, and community while they recover? That's exactly what Deborah Livingston did, and in the process, she's helped thousands of people mobilized 18 million hours of community service and proven that compassion isn't just good ethics, it's good business. Welcome to the Policy Playbook. I'm Misty Carson, and today we're talking about how to turn empathy into a competitive advantage, smart strategies, straight talk, zero BS for protecting your business and your people. Let's get to work. Today's guest is an MVP who's been playing in the workers' compensation arena for over 25 years. Deborah Livingston is the CEO and founder of Reemployability, and she didn't just start a business, she started a movement. When Deborah launched Reemployability almost 20 years ago, she saw a gap in the game that nobody else was addressing. Injured workers were being sidelined, uncertain about their futures, and employers didn't know how to support them effectively during the return to work process. So Deborah created Transition to Work Program, a revolutionary approach that connects injured workers with meaningful volunteer opportunities while they recover. Today that program has helped thousands of people across the United States and generated, again, over 18 million hours of community service for nonprofits. But here's what makes Deborah's story so powerful. She's not just running a successful business, she's provide proving that you can build a winning organization by putting people first. Her approach is simple advocate for the employee, encourage empathy, and create a supportive return-to-work process that benefits everyone. And the recognition speaks for itself. Top 25 entrepreneurs of Tampa Bay, Tampa Bay Business Journal, Business Woman of the Year, Business Insurance Woman to Watch, and the list goes on and on. Today we're diving into how she built it, what she's learned, and why leading with compassion isn't just the right stra it's just isn't just the right thing to do. It's a strategic advantage. Deborah, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Thank you for having me.

unknown 2:09

We made it.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

We made it.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Yes, yes. Everybody not watching, a little bit of a glimpse, but we got it. We got it. We're there. Yes. So tell me a little bit about you and how did you get in the game?

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Yeah, so I started my career actually as a claim suggester, which which really, even if you take a little step further back, my career really started in retail. So out of college, it was retail. And I just I just could not handle the grind, the the weekends, the nights, the long hours. And so I really just wanted an office job. And so I would I, you know, let me work nine to five was really like the dream. And um I really was fortunate enough to get a job at Aetna Property and Casualty as a claims adjuster. And this was back in 1990, and they had an incredible training program. And I worked really hard and worked my way. Um, I would say kind of through the ranks, but I didn't go up like a through through management, right? I didn't go through that channel. And it was interesting because I was told you have to be a manager if you want to go anywhere. And I said, watch me not be one. I love that. Which is interesting because now I run a business and I have to manage a lot of things, but that's not where I got my experience from. So um, so yeah, so anyway, uh, that's where I got my insurance, you know, start was with Aetna. I worked my way into national accounts and was on a team uh where I was doing claims consulting and claims reviews. And what that was where I really learned about the importance of return to work and how really it is the single most effective way for a company to reduce the loss of their losses, the cost of that claim, you know, and keep talent. So that both are really important to business, right?

SPEAKER_03 3:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

So um went through various stages in my career, and I landed at a Wells Fargo Insurance Services similar role where I was doing claims consulting. And then I was sitting at a workers' comp conference here in Florida, listening to a panel of attorneys speak about return to work back in 2003. And this was when there was going to be a big workers' compensation law change. And return to work was coming kind of back in vogue, I would say. And so I leaned over to a colleague of mine and I said, Hey, someone should start a return to work business. And we just kind of started chatting about it. And then my former boss came over to me, um, who was from Aetna, and I said, Someone should start a return to work business. He goes, You guys should go into business together. And I said, You are nuts. Like that's just like wasn't even on my radar at the time. But that seed he planted, yeah, just couldn't, it just didn't go away. It's just growing, just kept growing.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

And so it was very strange how the following week that colleague that was sitting next to me and I kind of emailed each other like simultaneously, hey, let's talk about starting a business. And so we did, and we put a business plan together, and that's kind of where reemployability was born. Interestingly, what we're doing today is not what we were doing back then.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

That is interesting. Yeah. So tell me about the difference.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

So, yeah, so we started out doing job placement services for those that were injured who could never go back to their pre-injury job. So they were permanently injured in a way where they could never get back on that roof or never drive that truck again. And it was about four years in that a large insurance company who we were doing business with approached up, approached me and said, Hey, we have this company out there. It's he, they're a manufacturer based out of Houston, and they're doing this thing where they put injured workers and nonprofits while they're recovering. They're gonna come back to work eventually, but they don't have modified duty for them. And he said, It's turnkey, would you take it on? And so, as the entrepreneur that I am, you know, I said, Oh, yeah, I'll take it on, absolutely. And I had heard of the concept before, um, but never really kind of implemented it myself. So we started doing it for this one employer, and I grabbed my salesperson at the time who's still with me today, she's my VP of sales and business development, and I said to her, start planting the seed with our clients and see what they think.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

And like little by little, more and more clients were interested, more and more third-party administrators came on board, carriers came on board. And so it was within about within about five years that that business that we had started, the service we started when we started our business, um this service eclipsed it. So we said, let's just focus on this. So we kind of put that to the side and solely focused on what we then branded as transition to work.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

What a great pivot. Yeah. It was a great pivot. Yeah. And now you're not only serving businesses, but also people in their biggest time of need as well. Exactly. It's so interesting to me how some of the best business ideas are born out of just solving a problem.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

And somebody gave the idea and you ran with it and created something beautiful, which is amazing.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

Yeah, we and we never really thought about the impact it would make on the lives of injured workers when we went out set out to do this. It wasn't until we started hearing all of the great stories of their recovery and what it meant to them to get out of the house and how it psychologically benefited them. And they they were depressed sitting at home, not doing anything, and then giving giving in their community and getting up off that couch and becoming, you know, physically um moving again. That movement and and and just engaging made such a difference.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

As an insurance agent, I can appreciate what you said too. It's not just about the return to work program, it affects their mod, but it's a lagging indicator big time. So that does also affect attrition, it affects your ability to recruit, and all of those things can affect the bottom line too, not just that one incident, but everything that trickles down from that as well. Absolutely. So you talked a lot about how things are changing in your business. So, what plays were you running that you can't run anymore or that aren't effective anymore? How has that game changed for you?

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Well, first of all, when we first started the business, we had zero competition. I mean, we were the first ones out of the gate to do this. And so there was nobody there.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

And so we didn't have to really think about it. Now there are some other players in the market. And so it it makes you shift the way you do things a little bit, right? I mean, I mean, you don't want to totally focus on your competitors because you want to focus on what you do and what you do best and what you do right. Um, but you have to know that they're there and you have to always be aware of what they're saying, what they're using as their competitive edge. So that that was a big really big difference. And I think even for my sales team, it's become a challenge for them because they're not used to having competition, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:36

So suddenly you're the only one. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

So training them now to, you know, look, you you've got to, you've got to now talk about why we're better, right? And using our competitive advantage versus being concerned about that competitor being out there.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

So would you say that the biggest strategy or who they relate to the most or talk to the most would be carriers or businesses, nonprofits, or is it a mix of all of it?

SPEAKER_02 9:00

It's really a mix of all of those things. I mean, we consider all of those our partners. I mean, nonprofits are critically important and how we take care of that partnership is also important. And because we now have competition, we want the nonprofit to work with us. Yes. So um, so we want to make sure that we're communicating effectively with them and they they clearly understand their role in this relationship. Um, but as far as the carriers, TPAs, employers, they're all equally as important to us. So even when my sales team says, which should I prioritize on? It's all of it.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

So it's a 33, 33, 33 split. No, I completely appreciate that. So with everything changing and you mentioning that you now have competition in the market, what does winning look like for you in the next 12 months?

SPEAKER_02 9:43

Oh wow. So uh every year our our entire leadership team goes through strategic planning and we come up with what are our objectives for like for 2026, and then what are the initiatives that roll up into those objectives? So winning for me is obviously meeting all of those objectives. But I think from an employer standpoint, um, winning really is helping people.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

And so whether it's that employee that is going to the next level, whether it's a promotion within my company or even outside of my company, or it's that injured worker that called up and said, This program made a difference in my life, to me, that's a win. Yeah. And and those stories and sharing those stories, that that's really priceless.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Yeah. I agree. Everything about a business to me is all about the people because without the people who support your infrastructure and what you're doing, you have no business. Absolutely. Yeah. So I love that you intersect all of those things and that you really can give back in both directions, which is beautiful. Actually, in three directions, you're giving to the community also. So it's not just the two people who are involved, it's also everyone else gets to benefit from that too.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Yeah, it sounds so cliche, but we always say it's a win-win-win. It is a win-win-win. Everybody's winning. Yeah, which is the win. We really are. It is this.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

All I do is win, win, win. I hear that song in my mouth. That's so great. So, what is your philosophy? You talked a little bit about your team and your team getting together and strategizing. So, what is your philosophy on building a championship team?

SPEAKER_02 11:07

So I would say I haven't always had one, right? So let's kind of start with that.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

And I would say that there was a point in time where not all of our my leadership team were aligned, and that was challenging. Um, several of them are still with me today, but I think within the last five years, I now have what I would say is a really aligned, purposeful team. So when I say aligned, they're aligned with my purpose, my values, and what I believe is the right style of leadership, right? One of the things we adopted um last year was the ideal team player. So it's a book by Patrick Lencioni. Okay. If I'm saying his name right, I hope. And it basically says that the fundamentals are that an individual should have three qualities. They should be hungry, humble, and smart. And smart is not intellectually smart, smart is emotionally intelligent, smarts, right? And so we adopted that last year. We basically had every employee and leader in the company read the book, and it's a small book, and it's got like little parables in it, so it's very easy to understand and very easy to see yourself in some of the characters. And then you basically determine like which what people strengths are. Do they have all three of those? Do they have just two of those? And if they only have two or even one, are they really an ideal team player? Can you help them grow into being coming an ideal team player? And when we went through that whole program and then identified who our ideal team players were and even who weren't, it was coaching them into um becoming ideal team players or holding them accountable so that they would then opt out of the organization. And it's just worked incredibly. And we've even built our whole interview process around it.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Yeah, so we've seen a huge difference in the talent that we're attracting and that we're putting the right people in the organization now that are right for our culture, and they identify with our purpose and our mission and what we're here to do.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

I'm definitely going to be ordering that book on either. It's a great book.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Yeah, I highly recommend it to anybody who's leading people.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

I love all of the things that you said. I would like to believe that I have all three of those qualities. I think you do. But I love it. I love to read books just how to have a different perspective, how to look at things differently, how to understand how to get aligned. Uh, one of the biggest things, I actually posted about this this morning. One of the biggest and most important things in my mind is who we align ourselves with. Absolutely. So your community, your circle, your partners, your friends, that all creates an environment that you're either going to thrive or you're going to flail. So either, yeah, so either way. Yeah. Yeah, you just gotta decide it. And a lot of times we know, but we and we even know what we should do, but for some particular reason we have these resistance, so we don't do it. So yeah, I love all of that. 100% going to be reading that. Yeah, it's a great book. Yeah, can't wait. So, how do you think about compensation and benefits? And are they a part of your strategy?

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Yeah, definitely part of our strategy. It's a very it's a challenge for us, though. We're a small business. And so even with uh 85 employees, we only have a very small portion of our employee group that are are in our benefits program. And I think as a small employer, we just don't have a lot of options. We don't get the the discounts that maybe a larger employee would get because they have so many more lives that are being covered, and the the risk is is spread out amongst a larger group. And so unfortunately, the only way for me to make it a competitive advantage is to continue to contribute more and more and more every year to the health plan. And especially the health plan, you know, the the rest of it, the 401k and all of that, is a little bit easier. Um but for for health benefits, like even this year, you know we've gone through a difficult renewal. Um the initial out-of-the-gate increase was about 50%, which we kind of expected to see, but it still hits you. Yeah, you know, and the money there's only one pot of money is what we always say, right? So it's it's either gonna go to increased, you know, increased salaries, um, it's gonna go to uh unfortunately now some healthcare benefits for employees. And and they don't really see what you contribute. You can tell them, like, oh, I'm gonna contribute now 80% to your plan. Um, but they forget about it.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Like they you know, yeah, it's not dollars coming out of their paycheck. That's exactly right. Exactly. And then they also there is a little bit of, well, you own the business, so you have the money to pay for it. Right. So it's right. Because if you never own a business, you don't understand that there's a lot of places where the money goes. That's exactly right. It's really crazy how expensive it is to run a business. So I appreciate everything you're saying. And we did talk about the healthcare market just in general. It is going up exponentially. And they are expecting, and I love this particular metaphor, everybody to drive a Lexus when they only need to drive a Chevy or they only desire to drive a Chevy, or and you're literally getting priced out of the market, not only as a business owner, but also as a consumer of healthcare. It's literally you have to take on a second job to pay for your healthcare. Absolutely. Especially for employers who cannot afford to financially participate but are required to offer benefits. Yeah, it's becoming a really volatile environment and things need to be done about it.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Absolutely. It's it's a huge challenge, I think, as a s as an employer, and especially a small business. Um, I think it makes it even more challenging. And and again, you know, I have employees that are not high wage earners and they they do need health care. So trying to help them get health care, the only way to do that is to give them some contribution towards it.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Because otherwise they won't well, they'll go without it. Yeah. And certainly the marketplace doesn't know way to go because that's just as expensive with even with even less coverage.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

And that's the other thing I was going to mention is that you're paying more and getting less.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Your deductibles and coinsurance are increasing, your co-pays are increasing.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

The networks are shrinking.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

The networks are shrinking. You may or may not get coverage for certain medications. Some plans are only generics.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

It's very, very challenging.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Yeah, understanding it's getting as complex reading the language as it is in the property and casualty side is that one little line completely changes what you think you're getting when you're purchasing the product. And it's really become convoluted where it didn't used to be that way. There are a lot of secondary companies who are coming in and providing different types, but you still have to fit into their markers, right? You can't have a lot of losses. You can't have, and that makes it more difficult as well. So it'll be interesting to see how it continues to change over the next five years.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Absolutely. And and I actually think I just read an article about cancer rates and young people increasing, right? So I think that's certainly playing into this. It's terrifying, yeah. And and I know that's playing into it.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

So I I don't know what the answer is. And and of course, we're seeing some new players, like you say, come into the market, maybe increased competition. But I even know, like for my group, there's certain carriers that wouldn't even look at us.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Right? Yeah. The major ones that wouldn't even look at us.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Yeah. Pharmacological costs are a massive, a massive reason that this is happening as well. Um, the introduction of GLP ones has been amazing for a lot of people in a lot of ways, but it also has created a cost frenzy.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

And and people are charging a premium. And there's not a lot of things you have to qualify for to get one or to get put on a GLP one, and it's really, really wreaked havoc on the cost of insurance just in general. So, what's the one thing that your business in your business that you would protect at all cost? Like have to have it, otherwise things are going haywire.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

So such an easy answer, and I think you probably already know it. People.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

I mean, we we're a human connection company, and we have to have the people in order to connect with another human being, right? Technology is really important so that the human beings can connect with more people. Yes. Right. And they can become more efficient. Um, but without the people, I have no business. They have to be here to to serve our clients, our nonprofit partners, our injured workers, who are obviously at the core of everything we do, and each other.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

I love that. Yeah, people are so important. It gets lost right in legislation. A lot of times we forget that we we are responsible for what kind of a lifestyle people can have when they go home and leave the building. They give you their service and their time all day long to make sure that your mission and your vision is fulfilled. Right. Yeah. And then on the same side, the people who are doing business with you require those things, but then they still have lives to live.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Yeah, absolutely. And we we say this about our own people as well as our injured workers, right? They they come to work with all of their stuff. There's no shutting it off. What's what's going on with them in the car with the kids on the way to work on the way to work is what they're bringing in the door. And we have to understand that as leaders. Uh, not that we shouldn't still expect them to do their job, but we I think we need to have that level of empathy. Yes. And I say the same thing about injured workers. I think workers' compensation is so transactional, and we've gotten a lot better over the years in the in the in the 20 plus years that I've been doing this um company. We've gotten so much better. And there's a lot of talk about empathy and how we're treating the worker now. Um, but we still are still like turning the Titanic in our industry. You know how insurance moves so slowly.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

It takes us a while to get there. I think we have to talk about it for like 50 years before. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

And then by the time they do that, it doesn't matter because it's not relevant. We're on to the next thing. Yeah, you're like, they did it, and now you're like, well, that doesn't even.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Yeah, exactly. But I think you we're doing a better job of looking at that injured worker as well and and looking at them holistically. Like they have a family, they have responsibilities that they're dealing with. It's not just this injury, right? And they want they want to get back to their life just as much as we want them to get back to their life.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Yeah, I think the other part too, a lot of people don't realize that some of those injuries, while they still may be able to go back to work, they don't ever really have their full quality of life back. Right. There's something about it, and even if it's just an emotional change, um, that still affects your life to your point. What happens in the car with your kids on the way to work, it matters. It matters. Those things matter a lot.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

So what's the most expensive and inexpensive lesson that you have learned throughout your time owning reapplayability?

SPEAKER_02 21:32

I think the most expensive lesson was wow, several years back we had a situation where we had an incredibly toxic workplace. And I just didn't see it. I didn't see it happening. And I think that as a result of it, we were losing business, we were losing the confidence of our customers. There was just too much going on culturally that that was impacting all facets of the business. And I and I can't emphasize enough how important that culture is. Been through it when it was bad. And I just didn't see it. And so once recognizing it, um, I would say I learned a lot from that. Um, and I learned about what to do and what not to do. So I think inexpensive was coming out of that, learning that I had to establish what I call now our red lines, and every employee knows what they are.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

And basically these are lines that will not be crossed, and if they are, you will no longer be a part of our organization. And they're basic things like no bullying, bullying, no gossiping, you know, things, things that are just, you know, you would hope are common. You would hope are common sense. But I've learned that common sense is not common. Social sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Common sense is not common. I think it's more social sense. It is. And I feel like it's becoming more difficult because the generations that are coming into work now socialized and are socialized in a much different way than generations prior were. So I don't even think a lot of times, in my opinion, it's purposeful.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

I think they just aren't really sure.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

No, they're not. And I think COVID had a huge impact on this, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Because suddenly we lost our way and forgot how to communicate and maybe even teach our young people how to communicate.

SPEAKER_03 23:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

And so I think it's so important as leaders to take that on ourselves. And so we are constantly at reemployability doing professional development for our especially our young people, but everybody at all levels and teaching them. And that's also one of the reasons why, and I know this is not going to be a popular thing to say. We really strongly believe in an in-person workplace.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

Um, as a human connection company, again, I say like remote has its place. Yes. And I think that flexibility and and is really, really important. Yeah. And we'd certainly have that. But there's nothing like being able to turn around and that person is right there, or to get up out of your seat and just walk over and have a conversation with somebody. And I think kind of to your point, the these last few generations have been have been really socially in their phones and in their devices. And so they haven't had to do this. Yes. This eye to eye, face to face. So it's so easy to ghost people when you don't ever have to see them again. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

And so it's a lot harder. Like I I talked to my kids about this. It's easy, it's easy to break up with somebody now.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Yeah, because you can just text them.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

You can just, or not. Or just go talk to them. You just stop talking to them. Like just we we would have to face the person. Yes. Right? Yes. And have that awkward moment.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

So I I think our kids are just not used to that. They're not. It's so interesting. I agree with you about the transfer of knowledge. I'm huge on that as well. You are missing generations of people who have done this job before you or who have experienced these things when it might be something that's brand new to you. And yes, if they're right next to you, you're gonna walk down the hall. You're not gonna Teams call them, you're not gonna text them, you're not gonna email them because you're on to the next thing. But if you're like, they're right down the hallway, that's a big deal. And during COVID, my youngest daughter was uh in middle school and she did all of her courses online, and that lasted for a couple of years in the state that we were. So she finished her third year online as well, doing online schooling. By the time she got to high school, no idea how to interact. Went boy crazy for one thing. Because hadn't got around boys like all through the all through the hormonal stage, right? So I was like, what are you doing? Like, calm down. But she was like, they're a friend, they're a friend, and then no one was a friend, and then she's just and she's still trying to figure that out. I'm like, girl, you're gonna blossom in college just calm down exactly.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

So it's so true. It's that's the reality of it, though.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

Yes, it's it's hard. I feel so bad for them. Um, I used to make my kids call up and order a pizza. I'm like, you're gonna dial the number and order a pizza.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

I'll never forget the time I had my daughter call to make her first hair appointment. Oh, I love it. Hilarious story. So so she was like, Well, what do I say? Well, you're gonna call and you're gonna schedule the just say you need an appointment. Tell them what you need it for. And so she she does, she makes the appointment, she comes back to me and she goes, I did it, mom, I did it. I made the appointment. And she told me when she made it for, and I go, You do realize that you have a conflict that day, right? She had a complete meltdown. No, but I have to call them back. How embarrassing. I was like, it happens all the time. Yes, all the time. You're not the first person to call right back and go, Oh my gosh, I I didn't realize I had plans like that. I did it yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Yeah, I mean, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

It was just really funny. But yeah, to your point, I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Yeah. As a parent. She was like, What? It's so funny. They're crazy. So, what is the most counterintuitive play that you have made that everyone told you is not going to work and then it ended up working?

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Most counterintuitive play.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Yeah, like everyone said that this isn't gonna what you're doing is absolutely crazy. And it could be starting the business.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Yeah, I think it was. It probably was. The people that look at you like you're doing what? You're insane. You're insane.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yeah. Never happening.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Why would you why would you do that? Yes. Why would you risk everything? Put it all on the line. Right?

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Because sometimes you have like it's so interesting. You have this feeling that you're supposed to give something to the world. You're not sure how or how the hell you're gonna get there, or what it's gonna look like, or who's gonna join you, but you just know it. Yeah. There's a knowing inside.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

Yeah, very true. Yeah. And even I think starting this a transition to work program it was it was going into it thinking that uh most companies were gonna use this to penalize the engine worker, right? And it's that's just kind of the track record in workers' compensation, right? How do we get them off of workers' compensation, right? And so that was sort of counterintuitive too, because I think the flip was how it was so different, the experience was so different, and how how much people embraced the program for the good, you know, versus the bad.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

And they thought it would be the opposite. I thought it would be the opposite. Yeah. What's the one play every business owner needs in their playbook? This is my signature question, and I ask everybody this because I think it's super important for other people like me who are starting our own thing and I'm in tandem with what I'm doing during the day. I'm always curious to collect this arsenal.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Yeah, I think it was Simon Seneck that said something along the lines of when you stand for living, breathing, human people, everything will follow. And so I believe culture, the right people, and then the numbers come. I mean, that's what I stand for. I love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

And I love him.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

I love him too.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

His books are so great. I had his little tabletop book about um, it's all about people and just being a good human, and it's the parable of the people on the playground. It's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Well, the whole his whole why is I I mean, that's what got me started with him, and then I've just kind of stuck with him all along. But I think also like learn, keep learning. Yeah, that has to be another play. I read so much, whether it's leadership books or just, you know, a business, just to help myself grow and be better.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

I agree. Thank you so much for being here. Where can people find you?

SPEAKER_02 28:53

Well, of course, at reemployability.com.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Right. And then um, I actually have my own website as well, which I I must be Deborah at Deborah Livingston.com. I'm not even 100% sure exactly what the URL is. But if they go to reemployability.com, they can find me. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

And also, you didn't say it, but on LinkedIn you have the best series. You give all the leadership tips and tricks, and you post them multiple times a week. And I love them. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

That's direct from dev. Yeah. So you can follow me on LinkedIn and follow my newsletter as well. Yes. You'll learn about everything I've gone through, all the trials, the tribulations, the successes in my organization. And work comp college, yes. I have a webinar coming up on this Thursday, which is um a women's uh talk about women and how we're emerging in workers' compensation.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Amazing. Yeah. Women are emerging in insurance in general, especially in the property and casualty space. Finally. Finally, yes. Praise the Lord. Yeah, I get it. Um, so thank you so much again for being here. Thank you. Yeah, I really appreciated it. Um, so Deb is living proof that you don't have to choose between doing good and doing well. You can build a thriving business and make a massive impact. You can lead with empathy and win in the marketplace. Here's what I want you to take away from this conversation. First, there's untapped value in solving problems that other people ignore. Deborah saw injured workers being left behind, and she built a business that serves them, and that business has generated so many hours of community service, dignity for the people who are going through the pain, and an opportunity for the families and businesses to serve them. Second, your values can be your competitive advantage. Compassion isn't soft, it's strategic. When you genuinely care about the people you serve, it shows. And people want to work with a business that gives a damn. And third, building a championship team means hiring for mission, not just skills. When your team believes in what you're doing, they'll go the extra mile because they're not just clocking in, they're part of something bigger. Deb's built more than a business, she's built a movement, and that's what great leadership looks like. I want to take a minute before we close this out. This will be the last episode of the policy playbook in its current form. And it's not because this chapter didn't matter, it mattered a lot. It built the foundation. But as I've been having conversations like the one I had today, working with leaders and really listening, it's become clear that what we're navigating isn't just risk on paper. It's pressure, it's identity, and it's how we show up when things get hard. And for a lot of us, that didn't start in a boardroom. It started much earlier. What I've seen and what I've lived is that our adverse experiences in childhood and in life didn't break us. They built something in us, something unbreakable. And most people don't realize how to use that, how to take what was forged in them and apply it to how they lead, how they sell, how they build, and how they move through the world. So this isn't an ending, it's an expansion. The podcast is becoming the Unbreakable Advantage, a space where we talk about how to use what you've been through as a competitive advantage in business and in life. If you've been here, you're already part of it, and I'm glad we're walking into this next chapter together.